Learn how to test and scale up new policy ideas in a complex city, with Pongpisit Huyakorn
Joshua Vargas
Welcome to the URBANovation Podcast. If you’re joining us for the first time, my name is Joshua and I’m an urban science researcher from the Philippines, currently based in Singapore. I am delighted to present URBANovation with my co-host Dao Nguyen.
Dao Nguyen
Hi everyone, my name is Dao, URBANovation co-host.
Joshua Vargas
The URBANovation Podcast has one goal, to show that there are many ways to tackle the complex challenges faced by Southeast Asian cities. In our past few episodes, we covered different scales of innovation, from large design projects using nature-based solutions, to small and flexible technologies for building retrofits. We also tried to explore why it can be difficult to come up with solutions. We talked with youth from different Asian countries about the unique aspects of traffic problems in their hometowns.
And we discussed the concept of productive friction as a way to understand these challenges without forgetting the people who make up the city. So let’s say you want to be a leader in your community to tackle the challenges of your city. How would you do it? Would you go to university for architecture or engineering? Would you work in government or university or an NGO? And is there a single right answer or right path for creating positive change?
We are honored to have with us Pongpisit Huyakorn or Pun. Pun is the founder and director of Urban Studies Lab, a leading urban think tank and consultancy in Bangkok, Thailand. He is also lecturer at the Department of Urban and Regional Planning in Chulalongkorn University. Pun, it’s great to have you.
Pongpisit Huyakorn
Hi everyone, Pongpisit here. Most people call me Pun. I’m an urbanist, a father and the founder of Urban Studies Lab in Bangkok. We believe cities are not just systems, they are stories and the people who live in them should be mostly contributing to it and writing the chapter together with us. As USL, we bring research, community voices and policy together to create real change from safer homes, cleaner air to better help and governance in our cities. My work isn’t about solving the city in the drawing board, in the planning room, it’s about listening, co-creating and helping the most in need.
Joshua Vargas
I found very interesting the way you say that cities are not just systems but also stories. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? Why do we need to think of cities as stories?
Pongpisit Huyakorn
It’s more interesting. Conventionally, we talk about where I’m coming from in urban planning, right? It tends to be really rigid, the drawings of the neighborhood, the map. And of course, it helps capture some part of it. But we feel that it won’t do justice in really capturing the stories or help people communicate their needs or their issues really. And it’s also really hard to capture all the story of each people, I guess.
Joshua Vargas
I found that interesting, the way that you talk about the importance of needing to think of that in that way. the traditional way of studying these kinds of problems, especially in Southeast Asian universities can be very rigid. And I’m sure you’ve talked about that in your journey, studying in Bangkok, in Japan and in Italy and also teaching at some of Thailand’s best universities and coming up with programs. So maybe you could share a little bit more about your own background and how you’ve come to the point of founding your own organization, Urban Studies Lab.
Pongpisit Huyakorn
Hmm, I think I’m a hybrid between practice and an academic, I guess. I’m someone who’s trying my best to connect between research, teaching and real-world practice. Hopefully throughout our discussion, it will make sense more and more for the audience. As Joshua mentioned, I studied in Thailand and then I went for my master in Japan and then in Italy for my PhD.
In most of the programs, the thesis or the research I conduct by mostly working in research unit or lab setting. It’s operating more flexible outside of the wall, if you may, as an outreach or working with different stakeholders from local communities to municipalities and more. So I think it’s embedded through my academic journey as a student and until I come back to be professor, first in Thammasat and now in Chulalongkorn universities. And coming back after my PhD, I also noticed a lot of gaps, not just ‘gap’, but gaps plural! I mean, the giant one is between knowledge and action, especially in the local level. Many community leaders complain or fed up with me that, “a new face coming into the local community again. Every time “your people” come in, we rarely get anything back.” Sometimes if it’s a design world practice, it might be a beautiful sketch design or exhibition by the student and the professor, we might end up with a really well written report. Of course, it’s good for us as academics, it’s good for the funder when they look at it, but seeing the real world, the real people, at least from their own experience, it’s not really useful. So, USL was born from that frustration, that research often end up in reports, and they believe that data, if we can use it well, can move people and the system. starting by just like in one local neighborhood in one community of Nang Loeng that we start our journey in almost seven years ago from 2018.
Joshua Vargas
Yeah, so there you have it. Urban Studies Lab largely works on translational research projects. They are both academic and they’re practical. And as a matter of full disclosure, I actually interned at Urban Studies Lab in 2022. I interned under Pun and I saw firsthand that there was such a wide variety of projects, such, in my opinion, impressive work as well, that really responds to the needs of local communities. And we’re going to later go into how their approach does that uniquely, especially for Southeast Asia. But Pun, maybe you could share with the audience some examples of the diversity of projects. There are just so many things that your team is working on.
Pongpisit Huyakorn
Right. One of the biggest projects is a crowdfunding program during COVID pandemic At USL we work at a resource center, called Ford Resource and Engagement Center, There are many non-profits and NGOs and also social business and social impact program. And we found out going into the lockdown in April 2020, of course this is affecting my life, but there are many marginalized and vulnerable populations who would go through it differently. the biggest question is where is the most vulnerable community of population in Bangkok? And none of them could answer it. Even me, everyone looked up to me as a professor, I should know. In Bangkok back then, even the government sector cannot tell us where we should go. So me as a researcher and my team, we start gathering data. And we have the hypothesis that maybe poor people, poor families and elder population would be more vulnerable or prone to the pandemic. So we use those data to combine and we have the granular data in the level of sub-district, which is normally we look at Bangkok in 50 districts, but sub-district is more like grain in like 177 of them. And from that, we also connect to local network called local health volunteer. So normally one volunteer take care of 10 to 30 vulnerable households. I think that’s the main process we are working with. We’re working with the social network in the local community to really get into the heart of the problem. But then we use the data, the living data from them, combining or validating with secondary data from the government or private sector. And from them, we transform it to be a media piece or small research or pilot program to then translate it to real policy advocacy. Now from there, for example, we find that it’s really critical issues of substandard housing and marginalized population. So they’re living in that really like below par, like crumbling wall or like no roof or the floor is really unstable and they squatter so they build a house into the river. So even more at risk. This is just physical setting, but the human setting is also bad. Sometimes like seven elder population living together. Or just only one grandpa who’s still really active, but the grandma is bedridden. So you will see that this is where the story of the people and the data come to life. So we combining those all different layers, then we know which house are more urgent to support. We then connect them to the supply of social services. In Thailand, we have small funding to help renovate the house in bad condition. So we make use of those government funding. But along the way, we also fill the gap, right, that you have to pay upfront. None of the poor would be able to pay upfront to get the funding.
So we are building a revolving fund so that it can funnel the funding before the government can pay it back. We also found that government only pay for materials. So you can end up with a lot of wooden columns, but nobody can help fix it in urban context in the metropolitan capital of Bangkok. We also train the local network like fixermen and then we keep using those fixermen. And from all of that, right now we renovate almost 50 houses, mostly by the government funding, but we also raise funds to support the house. There are some houses that the government won’t be able to renovate. it’s squatters, there’s no right on the land or the property. We help them engage with the owner to at least get some sign off from them in order to renovate it from the private CSR funding. And now from that, coming home, we use all of those cases to conduct research. So now we are in the process of transforming it into a housing audit program where locals can audit their house by themselves. So this will make it faster. But then the local district can then go into the housing that got audited through our spreadsheet that they can checklist.
And also a big one, this is a different scale in a national level. We just signed an MOU between National Housing Authority, Digital Government Agency, BMA to do a Housing for All open data platform. That’s to talk about the housing system and try to calibrate between housing demand and supply, connecting subsidies and promote stability in the most at risk area. We’ll start in nine provinces like Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Khon Kaen, Hat Yai and a few more and they’ll keep building on that network and data flow.
Dao Nguyen
I wish I had a chance to intern at USL my college. But I have been following USL on social media and website as well. And I’m actually very impressed by your approach in terms of urban living lab by bridging the different entities in urban planning and urban making as well. So I just have a question, like, why do you think that it is important to bridge different entities like civil society, like NGO, academics, with like government corporate and local people in the Thai context, but also like in like Southeast Asia in general as well?
Pongpisit Huyakorn
Urban issues are really complex. All the issues like transportation, housing, sanitation, public health, so on. There are so many of them. I don’t think, at least in Thai context, the government sector, the local government, municipality don’t have all the resources to do it by themselves. On the contrary, it used to be really technocratic. The mayor come to me, I’m a professor, I should know all the solutions to how to make the city better. It’s also proved to be wrong. Of course, we have technical knowledge, but again, we work mostly in a university setting, we don’t have time to go out into the field. I think this is where the nonprofit, the NGO come in. So they’re closer to the ground and they’re really flexible and they are really fast to change and to issues because they’ve been working with the local community people. And at the center, right, is the user. So user can be many people, individuals like us or more marginalised, informal workers or people with disabilities. We want them to own their issues, but we want to learn and study from them. combining all of the good parts, all different capabilities and responsibilities together, I think that’s one of ways forward, to tackle contemporary and more rapid disruptive nature of urban dynamic that’s happening right now. We just had the earthquake, before that is like two, three seasons of pandemic, I mean, not to mention the geopolitical economic recession that’s coming. So yes, just to conclude, it’s really hard for one sector, even to be private or public to solve the issues, the urban issue alone. Private sector also have a big part to play because they have a capital to do and many of them want to do good work. They just want some, we just need someone to point them to the right direction, I think.
Joshua Vargas
Yeah, definitely. And as you mentioned, the scope and scale of the challenges that our cities face is really huge and can be overwhelming. And there’s so many overlapping challenges as well. You mentioned the pandemic, you mentioned socioeconomic and political issues. And often these issues seem very, very big to tackle, especially in the scope of one project. So I have two questions. The first being what are some of the major challenges of creating positive change in the Thai context? And I’m sure the rest of us in the region can learn something as well. And the second question is how then do you identify a problem and scope it such that you’re able to meaningfully define what your targets are in each project? Because it can be very overwhelming and confusing at first.
Pongpisit Huyakorn
Okay, answering the first one. First, think coming back to Living Lab approach, I think we in the era that we have technologies, information and data flow that we don’t need. We can’t invest 100 US dollar on a one week initiative, right? Without testing. I think the essence of Living Lab is piloting proof of concept or testing or validating.
To your second I think this is really important that we pilot first. The biggest gap is that there are many pilot initiatives in Thailand and maybe Southeast Asian as well. But what we still learning or I myself as a researcher don’t see much investment in is the impact assessment.
The Thai government normally would just do KPIs, like Key Performance Indicators, which means that it’s numbers, it’s quantity, how many activities, how many people they train, how many funding they get out – which is good! But again, it doesn’t say anything about the real impact. We want to measure output. But what we want to see more is outcome, right? What’s the change of the lives of the people that we affect? And from many, many outcomes, it can group together into impact. So I think the learning part in Thailand, at least, is still lacking. So that’s like impact assessment, gathering feedback from the local community, data visualization and communication, even like literacy among the operational staff within public sector is also lacking. I think right now, USL is past that pilot and learning stage. Now we are in the scaling stage where we transform that into real public policy, working with the national department or ministry level of public agency in order to make it systematic. So I think that’s the overall picture of it. How we target the start is a hard one to say. I think we follow where the problem is. Good thing that we have a local network to rely on. And for the past two, three years, we’ve been all over the place. Smart city, place making, public space, urban poverty, and beyond. Now we are more refined, more and more we focus on urban health. I think that’s the end goal. We look at health and wellbeing as the ultimate outcome that we want the local community to achieve. So in any program we do, that’s like we have the compass, we have the North Star that keeps us like one step at a time toward that journey, I think. So maybe it’s about occupation, it’s about training, but again, with social determinants of health, we all know that all of the socioeconomic settings can impact a lot on your health and wellbeing.
Dao Nguyen
So Pun, you mentioned about impact and outcomes and outputs. I guess that you follow the theory of change, which I also use that when I work for the UN and we call it lock frame. And then the problem with scaling up is that normally you need to also tie it, how to tie the output outcome and also impact as well. So I wonder, I’m wondering in the period, in the journey of scaling up and also like different goals and also the focus of USL, like how do you like change and also revise the output outcomes or the impacts that USL have been targeting to really adhere also accommodate the current situation of the the lively urban dynamics in Thailand.
Pongpisit Huyakorn
Hmm, very good question. Very good question, Dao. I think we are pressured to do because we work with multinational, international funders, United Nations, or philanthropy and foundations. So many of them are really serious and rigorous about the theory of change that we need to capture.
But again, this is the challenge I took too hard that really that we say that we want to be a research, a think tank that really deliver like social impact. So we, can’t do anything. You don’t know the baseline. I the problem is the baseline. So I was here. So I think that’s something I fought. It’s the main reason I got the funding to kickstart USL because I contacted the Ford Resource Engagement Centre here in 2018 and then the leadership of the Ford Fund recruited me to have my own research centre there with annual Seed Fund. This year we are growing in terms of the building. We are building another two small buildings and gonna be a campus now and it’s been five years and the major change would be the metro station coming in in three, four years.
So this year again, we are redoing the baseline to really like access the situation of the local community, whether it’s worse or it’s stable or it’s better. And then we use that to really follow through with all the things we do. That is more like ecosystem based. So this is a landscape that we operate. But internally as USL, we also use that theory of chain as the frame.
I think I use Theory of Change not just only like impact capturing but also for planning. Like really see what we are doing and how we are achieving. And from Theory of Change mindset I build with my team is called USL Appraisal. So we appraise, we do that unit-based. Like we have like 15 to 20 employee. So like researcher, designer, managers. We appraise what they do. Like what are the return of social return of investment, we want to know which one dollar in investment, how much the outcome of the people that we can change the life. Back to housing renovation, It’s six times. Six times if it’s about health outcomes. Seven point five times if it’s about economic outcomes. I know this is not directly answer the question, but it’s just the story and how this is the backbone we use. To answer you directly, we just look at it quarterly and then annually and then we keep refining the theory of change. Before, I was really shy now, we are quite confident and happy.
Joshua Vargas
So to summarize, Urban Studies Lab is known for the urban living lab approach, and it really brings these different elements together. It starts with placemaking and partnership development. So really, as Pun mentioned, working with local partners to really understand communities and identify the problem. This is also how USL started with many focuses and eventually sort of ⁓ streamlined towards focusing on well-being. Then there are the pilot projects which are testing out different interventions. And then there’s the impact assessment, which is to see if these interventions work, how can they work better, not just in terms of quantitative measurements, but also in really seeing the impact. And this culminates, and of course, in a cycle that repeats, but it culminates in education, leadership development, and scaling up. And that’s the kind of approach that is both standardized in a way, but it’s also really bespoke to the different projects that USL does. And that’s something that I thought was really insightful and also made me think about how do I want to make my research applicable to the everyday lives of people living in cities. So I think I learned a lot actually in my internship at USL.
I guess this is an opportunity to plug that USL does have internships every year. So if you’re interested, especially if you’re in the Thailand area or if you’re able to go to Bangkok for summer, definitely reach out. One thing I found interesting is that I’m also a smart cities researcher and I see that many projects focus on trying on using data. Definitely there’s a focus on big data in cities now. But often the focus is to extract insights from data or to use data to justify some kind of infrastructural or technological project. And it’s often also a focus on trying to, for example, apply the most advanced new techniques to data. But when you talk about data, Pun, it’s always in terms of communication – what does the data say? What story does the data tell? Could you explain a little bit more?
Why is this the focus, especially in Thailand? Why is communication and community engagement the most important role of data?
Pongpisit Huyakorn
I mentioned the gap already, right? So top down planning, still remains the big gap when we implement the planning, the policy or the design. In those settings, data is often used as justification to like pre-design, to come up with the plan. At USL, we use data as the medium to communicate, find solutions through an evidence-based and inclusive approach. That’s because back to engagement and interaction with local community, it’s sad to me, that we’re asking from them a lot. If I’m the master student conducting research, I mostly ask to interview and get data from local community for free, honestly, right? And they, all the local community been rendered into research objects, which is sad.
What we do with urban poverty, we call it ‘Relief with Housing.’ We also invest in returning the data to them because I think that ownership, rapport is really important to make it practical. We translate it back, we make a risk map for them and then we work with them to plan for community like file hazard planning, for example. High density and housing made from wooden material are important issues that the local community are facing. So I think that’s why it’s important. And we work with so many different stakeholders. Many times it can be really subjective. I think that, Joshua thinks that, Dao thinks that we all wear different hats. I know sometimes we put on different lenses.
I think data can tell it much more constructively. Just to joke on it, they won’t be able to talk back to me if I work with the government officer or leader, saying ‘this is the real data. How else can you argue with me?’ It makes the point more objective and constructive, I think. And again, if I’m the mayor, it’s also challenging. So many problems. It seems that everything is urgent. And again, we have limited resources. I think data can help the government make decisions better and also prioritize on the key issues that we need to do it more urgently. I that’s what we learned – with frameworks, data, and context, this will help translate into insight. Insight with stakeholder alignment can turn into action. And driving home with action, action with and partnership with people. I think it can lead to a really meaningful impact.
Joshua Vargas
You’re also using USL to train other young researchers and to work with other community leaders, many of whom are young people. And you’re also an educator, of course. So I wanted to ask, what advice would you give to other young professionals in the region like ourselves who are trying to find their way to create positive and real change in their cities.
Pongpisit Huyakorn
I always have hope in younger generation and I work with so many of them, right? My students, my partner, my cohort. So my suggestion would be don’t wait for perfect conditions. With USL I’m bootstrapping so many things from zero, from ground up. So just start where you are. You just need to listen deeply from people and move with empathy, that’s so important. I might paint the picture of the public sector to be really bad. Many of them they’re working super hard. Connect to them, see the limitation on the civil servant side as well. So I want everyone to try to empathize. It’s important to be an urbanist working in an urban setting because there are so many stakeholders.
It’s important to us to try to understand them and don’t ever stop learning. I think that that’s really important if you want to make impact. Keep it in our heart that we don’t have all the answers, but we can work with others to find them together, I think. I mean, I’m breaking beyond the silo of an urban planner. If you look at my educational background, I would be just an urban planner. If you want impact in this world right now, impact doesn’t come from one discipline. It comes from connecting the dots across silos, especially with those who are unheard. And I don’t think you need… titles. I think it can come from the life of the people who you would improve through your work.
Joshua Vargas
Thanks so, so much, Pun, for sharing your insightful experiences. And I hope it really inspires more people and gives people confidence to start where they are and to really not wait for perfect conditions, but rather do what they can with the resources that they have, with the community that they have. Thank you.
Hosts: Dao Nguyen, Joshua Vargas
Research: Joshua Vargas
Production: Joshua Vargas
Post-production: Joshua Vargas
Communications: Joshua Vargas, Dao Nguyen
Music: Joshua Vargas
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